Loren Fogelman is a keynote speaker and one of America’s top-ranked business coaches.
In 2018 and 2019, she was recognized by HubSpot in its annual list of the world’s top 22 business coaches.
As a keynote speaker, Loren has delivered talks and workshops across the United States at major conferences such as Inbound, one of the world’s most esteemed content marketing events for entrepreneurs, as well as many niche conferences for accounting professionals.
Loren is an expert in pricing strategy and sales for accounting professionals. Her passion is empowering them to double revenues by working half the time through strategic pricing and effective sales techniques.
“You can’t be more committed to helping your client change who they are than them wanting that change themselves.”
“Their gain is going to be greater than what your fees are going to be”
“Pricing by the hour is unfair to you and your client”
The Ultimate Pricing Bootcamp – https://businesssuccesssolution.com/pricing/
Get Paid What You’re Worth eBook – https://businesssuccesssolution.com/worth/
Facebook Page: https://facebook.com/BusinessSuccessSolution
Chris Ippolito 00:31
Loren Fogelman 00:32
Hey, how you doing, Chris? So excited to be here.
Chris Ippolito 00:35
Great. I’m very excited, as well. This is a bit of a different kind of episode compared to some of the other ones, I’m really excited for this one in particular. We’ll just jump in. And I’ve got a couple of questions for you before, I know you’ve got a few questions for me.
Loren Fogelman 00:55
Yeah. Basically we’re turning the interview around, the traditional you questioning me, to where I actually am going to be asking you some questions.
Chris Ippolito 01:05
Yeah. And I’m very excited to try this out. It’s been something I’ve been thinking about and propositioning other coaches with. And there’s been some interest, but you were actually the first one to be like, “Hey, why don’t we do this?” And I was like, “Yes, let’s do it.”
Loren Fogelman 01:23
Chris Ippolito 01:23
That’s awesome. I’d like to hear about your background and how you decided to empower entrepreneurs to double their income while working half the time, because that’s a nice offer that you’ve got there.
Loren Fogelman 01:35
Absolutely. What I discovered, Chris, for myself, as well as all the service-based entrepreneurs that I work with, is that our education really trained us well to do that thing that we do, how we help our clients, the tactical part of it. But where education fell short, in my experience from my own job, my own business, as well as with my clients, is that it prepares you to be an employee instead of an entrepreneur or an employer. Because of that, what I found is, yes, do I have the skill set? Absolutely, love what I’m doing with my clients with helping them to double their fees working half the time, separating their fees from time. However, my education never prepared me on how to price my services, how to do sales conversations, and how to network. And those are the things that are really important if you want to have actually a business as opposed to a hobby.
I’m going to just throw out a really interesting statistic that I saw this morning, is that over 86% of entrepreneurs make under $100,000 a year and over 30% of them don’t even take any type of income for themselves. And I want to change that because I believe that as we lift up entrepreneurs, there is this compounding effect of they help bring other people up the ladder with them and it just spreads in good in so many different ways. And knowing how to price your services, separating your fees from time, is one of those things.
Chris Ippolito 03:18
Right. A rising tide takes all ships up.
Loren Fogelman 03:21
Raises all ships.
Chris Ippolito 03:22
Yeah, that’s right. I like that idea and I’ve heard it a couple of times, where people have said entrepreneurs are really the people that elevate our economy and our society as a whole. Because as an entrepreneur you’re solving problems, you’re creating new jobs, there’s a lot going on there.
Yeah, during our initial call and conversation we talked a little bit about pricing, as you had mentioned that. Rather than an interview, we wanted to give real-time examples of how this works as far as you coaching and how you help people. We agreed that we were going to get this done and we’re going to have you ask me questions around the business that I do, which is sales funnels as a service. My ideal client being business coaches like yourself, but really that’s just the niche that I focus on. Yeah, I know you’ve got questions for me, are you ready to get started with that?
Loren Fogelman 04:25
Yeah. And basically I just want to let you know that this is a lot of what is out of my program called The Ultimate Pricing Bootcamp. What is in that program is part of what we’re going to be touching on today, also, just to let you know where people can find more of that.
Chris Ippolito 04:42
Yeah. We’ll make sure that’s included in the show notes and the description in the video below because I know this is going to be a nice little teaser and taste of the immense amount of value that I’m sure is in there.
Loren Fogelman 04:56
And the very first step that I do with all my clients, whether it’s my private coaching clients or my mastermind or in The Ultimate Pricing Bootcamp, is to identify your ideal client, which we talked about during our initial call. Now your ideal client isn’t an avatar, which so many marketers talk about, which is creating who that fictitious person is that you would love to work with. Because you’re not working with fictitious people, you’re working with real people. And I want you to really think about who is that person that you absolutely love to work with. And it isn’t just about the demographics, which is what most people think about, where they live, their income level, profession, whether they have children or they are single and all of that. That’s good, but that’s not really the juicy stuff that makes a difference. I want to really focus on the psychographics.
And the psychographics are the characteristics and qualities of your ideal client. Because even though I work with service-based professionals, there are some that just aren’t a good fit for who I offer. And an example for you, Chris, before we dig into you, is that for me I don’t work very well with whiners. People that are always complaining, they’re always blaming everybody else around them, they’re really wedded to being stuck where they are, and they very rarely take responsibility. Those are not my ideal clients. Now they are for some people, which is great because they can transform and make a difference in their lives. But for me those aren’t the people that I work well with and I’m very, very aware of that.
And let’s take it to you. Do you have an idea as to who your ideal client is?
Chris Ippolito 06:38
Yeah. If we’re talking in terms of psychographic, what you’re saying there, for me it’s somebody who understands and sees the value that it’s not necessarily the time put into something, it’s the results on the back end. Right? And I think that’s a big part of what you coach, that’s a bit of an assumption on my part. But the reason I’m looking for that mindset is that we’re all trying to get away from trading time for dollars. And for me to try and find the ideal client, I have to find somebody who already understands that trading time for dollars is not an efficient and effective way to build wealth.
If we’re on the same page, then when I’m talking about the costs of services and what I’m going to do for them, then they’re not going to worry so much about, “Oh, well, how many funnels are you going to build and how many hours are you going to spend?” They’re not going to be asking those kinds of questions because really, at the end of the day, they’re just more concerned with the desired outcome, which is to either optimize their existing funnel or to put in place a funnel so that they can automate their process of growing their business.
Loren Fogelman 08:08
Okay. And let me reframe, and tell me if I’m right. What I hear with the coaches that you work best with is they recognize the importance of investing in their business and possibly in themselves because, a lot of them, they are their business. Is that true?
Chris Ippolito 08:26
Yeah, 100%. That’s the way I’ve evolved over the last few years, is that investing in myself is a very high priority for myself. If I’m going to work with somebody, working with somebody who sees eye to eye on that, then obviously that’s going to be a nice match. That’s a big one, for sure.
Loren Fogelman 08:46
Okay. And then what I’m also hearing is that a nuance with your clients is that maybe they’ve already separated their fees from time, they’re not charging by the hour, the session, or the project any longer, they are doing more of a fixed rate or value-based pricing.
Chris Ippolito 09:04
Yeah. Whether they’re doing that or not, I hope that they understand that that’s perhaps the next step for them. Because that’s also part of what I would want to help them out with. Because I’ve actually ran into a few coaches just through interviewing people for the podcast where we were talking about trying to set up even just that introductory call that we’ve done and they’re like, “Oh, I’m just so busy taking on more clients that I’m not actually even looking for ways to bring on more clients.” And I was just like, “Really? That’s so interesting, I feel like I should be able to help you with that kind of thing.”
Loren Fogelman 09:41
Well, then maybe that’s something to look at, that someone who is not an ideal client for you is really someone who is focusing on being the one who’s too busy in their own business and that they don’t really have the time to put in the effort necessary to get the results that you can help them achieve.
Chris Ippolito 10:01
Yeah, I suppose that’s a good way of looking it. For me obviously an ideal client would be somebody who is perhaps in that position and is looking to go, “Okay, well, how do I break through this current glass ceiling and get to that next level where I can start freeing up my time?” Oh, here it is. The mindset of it’s not necessarily to make more money, though that would be the byproduct. The mindset that I’m looking for and would love to work with is I want to help more people. Right? If you get to that point where if you’re already thinking, “I’ve got enough clients,” basically saying from my perspective, “I’m helping enough people,” I don’t think that’s going to be a good fit. Because I’m looking for somebody who’s, “I’m stuck, I can’t figure out a way to reach even more people and to help even more people.” That’s the kind of person I’m looking for.
Loren Fogelman 10:59
Okay, that’s great. The other thing that you mentioned before, and I want to bring it out because it’s actually really, really important, about an ideal client. And I don’t want this to remain hidden, is that your ideal client is usually one of two types of people. Either they are just like you in many, many different ways, which I think is the case for you, Chris, or they are opposite of you and they want to be like you.
Chris Ippolito 11:26
Never thought about that, that makes a lot of sense, yeah.
Loren Fogelman 11:28
Okay. How does that maybe shift some things with how you look at your ideal client, having that little nuance now in the front of your mind?
Chris Ippolito 11:38
That is a really good question. Let me take a little moment here to think about that. If we’re thinking in terms of the opposite, for me it is personal growth and personal development is important. I think it would be hard to find a coach who’s not interested in that. However, something that I’ve thought about since we last talked is the audience that is going to be listening to this podcast is going to be entrepreneurs, not necessarily coaches. If they reached out to me, “I know I’m not a coach, but I’d love to work with you,” obviously I’m going to take them on as a client.
Loren Fogelman 12:24
You get to decide, right? It’s your business.
Chris Ippolito 12:25
Yeah, I’m looking to help as many people as possible, just my main focus is just coaches because I just really connect with them. But then with that little nuance you threw in there the opposite is while they may be in that same position of feeling stuck like, “I don’t know what to do as far as growing myself personally, I’m looking for somebody or something that could help me,” then obviously I want to elevate them. Because, again, like you were saying earlier, helping an entrepreneur has this ripple effect of helping other people. Right?
Loren Fogelman 13:07
And let me just clarify once more that for the most part either your clients will, the majority of them, will be just like you or the majority of them will be opposite, and just have that awareness. Is it that they want to be just like you or is it that they are opposite of you and they haven’t invested in themselves yet, they’re not results-oriented yet? Just think about that, because I have a feeling that your clients have similar values to what you have.
Chris Ippolito 13:36
Right. Yeah, I think you’re right as far as my current mindset is looking for me as far as my characteristics in somebody else. But there’s perhaps those other people that haven’t, like you said, started that journey of personal growth or currently don’t feel like they want to help more people. They’re like, “You know what? I’ve helped enough.” But then something just really resonates, and then they go, “You know what? There’s something there, maybe I should further explore this.” I think the messaging to that type of audience would be very, very different.
Loren Fogelman 14:15
Absolutely. And therefore I would say don’t try to appeal to both, choose which one resonates more with you, and then your messaging will appeal to that particular audience. And similar to you, my ideal clients have all previously invested in some type of personal development work before or they invest in their own businesses. I absolutely agree that that’s an important trait for the people that I work with, as well, that’s been my experience.
We’re going to move on, okay? I want to get into value. And a lot of times when we consider value, especially as entrepreneurs because it’s our baby, our business, we’re looking at it from our perspective. I believe that that’s really, really important because you have to own your value before you can expect someone else to value what you have to offer. However, when someone is looking to make an investment working with you, it’s really not about what you value and what you care about, it’s about them valuing what you have to offer. A lot of it has to do with, basically marketing 101, knowing what their biggest problem is that they’re stuck with right now that you can help solve for them. And what do you see as that problem for your clients at this moment?
Chris Ippolito 15:35
Almost as we’re talking through this I’m starting to feel like perhaps the value I want to add is to that coach who has that mindset of, “I already have enough clients, I’m not looking to add more,” but I almost want to break down that false belief or almost unpack what it is like, “Why do you feel that way?” Break that down and show them a way through funnels and funnel processes of, “Let’s break down that barrier so that you can actually reach more people and help more people, but not necessarily invest more time.” Because I think that might be the barrier that they’re thinking, “I already feel busy, I’m already putting in all this time, I want to help more clients, but helping more clients might mean more time.” A lot of what you coach, right? But my channels would be more through doing sales funnels, not necessarily coaching them on how to do it, yeah.
Loren Fogelman 16:41
Okay. And basically what I’m picking up on is that with the clients that say, “I’m already busy, I don’t want more clients,” you’re trying to convince them that they need your services when they’re not even aware that they have a problem. I don’t believe that when you look at sales funnels per se and how funnels work, they’re not even in the research mode because they don’t even realize that they have a problem. That would be where you wouldn’t be able to get the best results possible. You can’t be more committed to helping them change than they are to wanting that change for themselves. With those people maybe information, education, like what we’re doing here by having a podcast, by other things that you’re throwing out there where you’re educating your ideal clients, they will be following you and they’ll stalk you for a while, they’ll be listening, and maybe they’ll eventually realize that they have that problem, but they’re not ready yet to make that investment, they’re not your buyers.
And because of that, what I want to look at for you is maybe the ideal client and that problem that you solve is that they want to actually help more clients but they don’t have enough time to do so, or that they want more income and they just don’t know how to do it without sacrificing some other part of their life.
Chris Ippolito 18:03
Right. One way I could look at it is the client, actually I’m going to be meeting with him in like an hour and a half here. The first client that we’re really like looking to work together and partner up is a coach. The problem I’m solving for him is he invested all this money into these courses, videos, and worksheets and all this stuff, but he’s just not been able to figure out the best way to get it out there and take the value that he’s created and share it with people.
That’s the problem I’m solving with him. Perhaps that’s what it is that I can help the ideal client with, is that they’ve created assets, they’ve got all this content that they’ve been creating over the years, whether it’s podcasts or YouTube or blogs or whatever it is, and they’ve grown a following, whether, again, mailing list, social media, or whichever channel that they have it on. But they’re just going like, “I don’t really know how to systematize and automate the process of getting this message out to my followers, and then helping them ascend that value ladder to ultimately become either a high-valued one-on-one coaching client or a mastermind member or whatever it is.”
Loren Fogelman 19:34
Okay, then what I’m hearing is that they’ve really already put in time, effort, energy, and money into developing the foundational piece, but they’re still frustrated that they haven’t gotten the results they expected, given the amount of time, money, and energy they’ve invested. They’re a best kept secret at this point and they can no longer allow that to continue to be.
Chris Ippolito 19:56
Yeah, exactly. I like the way you said that. They’re a best kept secret and I want to just help get that secret out there and show them how to do that.
Loren Fogelman 20:07
Yeah, you have to reveal the secret.
Chris Ippolito 20:08
That’s right, yeah. I like that. Cool.
Loren Fogelman 20:12
Okay, what just came up for you, Chris? Something clicked.
Chris Ippolito 20:17
Yeah, for me it was almost like the messaging for talking to those people, I feel like we’ve maybe nailed that problem. “Have you been putting in all the time and all that money and all that energy into creating these assets and this content, but yet you’ve not been able to reach the audience that you’re looking for? And basically do you feel like the best kept secret in your space and in your market? Let me help you share that secret, let’s get that secret out to the world.” I don’t know, I’m playing around with it in my mind right now as far as what the message looks like, but yeah.
Loren Fogelman 21:00
And that’s my words, it might not be their words. You want to eventually find out how they phrase it, but it’s giving you more clarity. The bottom line is you’re going to have a better conversation with this potential client because of our conversation first than if we wouldn’t have talked first. It’s not like this is a long, drawn-out, painful process. I do this all day every day. That’s why it’s the first step in my coaching program in the blueprint because you have to know who you’re talking to and really what’s going on inside their mind to help them be able to achieve what it is that they want for themselves or get unstuck.
Chris Ippolito 21:40
Yeah, that’s really good.
Loren Fogelman 21:43
Now one of the things that I also realize is, and I touched on this a little bit early, is value is subjective. That means that your clients need to realize that what they have to gain from hiring you and paying you, their gain is greater than what your fees are going to be. It doesn’t mean that you have low prices, not whatsoever. However, they simply have to believe that they have more to gain from investing in you than from moving on and not doing that. It doesn’t mean that you have to change what you offer.
And, Chris, I want to give you a really, really quick example of how value is subjective. Take this cup right here. If I’m speaking at a conference, you’re in my audience, you decide that you’re thirsty, you want to get something to drink, and I have cups of water like this or bottles of water at the back of the room. You might pay $1 or $2 maybe to go ahead and get some water.
Now if you have been walking around in the hot, hot desert in August for three days, you haven’t had any water. You don’t know if when you get to the top of the next sand dune, if you’re going to continue to see a sea of sand or maybe the lights of being able to get out of the desert. And then magically I appear once again with the same cup of water. Same content, same packaging, nothing has changed whatsoever. And also I know how to get you out of the desert and I’m going to give you that desert map so that if you ever find yourself in the desert again, you can get out of it on your own. How much would that solution be worth to you now?
Chris Ippolito 23:29
A lot more than $1, that’s for sure.
Loren Fogelman 23:31
Okay, well, I like real, firm numbers. I have my square with me. How much would you go ahead and pay for that then?
Chris Ippolito 23:42
Well, for me I would look at it and be like, “Well, if I don’t have this water, I could risk dying. If I don’t have that map, I could risk dying.” I mean it’s almost hard to put a value, but like $10,000, $15,000, $20,000 for that same thing.
Loren Fogelman 24:01
Right. And really the important part to look at is that this didn’t change whatsoever. What changed was your wants, you want to be able to get out of the desert. Your needs, you need to have water within 72 hours or else you really will die, your body can’t go longer than that. And your desire to be able to continue living and continue to have a life. Because I was able to tap into those three things, those were the things that changed once you ended up in the desert as opposed to me speaking at a conference, you were willing to pay more for the same exact solution.
And that’s what you want to do, and you have conversations with your clients and you really think about separating your fees from time, is understanding what are their wants, needs, and desires. And when you can really tap into those things, then the value begins to shift and it’s no longer about connecting your fees to your time. And, once again, think about what is that problem that you do solve for your clients, what is it they desire, what is their desert and you have their cup of water with the way out and the map. What would that be that you can offer them?
Chris Ippolito 25:27
Going back to what we were talking about as far as what’s the problem. What I would be offering them is a way to open up the floodgates in a sense to having more people take action on the assets and the content that they’ve already invested so much time and money into, just really showing them how to narrow down their message and target the right people so that we get them into the funnel.
And then from there it’s just a series of steps, taking them along a journey from either cold or perhaps warm traffic to all the way to a hot purchasing client, and just looking to show them you can do this and you can make this more successful, I can get you unstuck from the daily grind of whatever it is you’re already doing. Which in a lot of cases I think a lot of them are just trying to put out even more and more content, hoping that that content is going to eventually break the dam and allow that flood of traffic to come in. And it could, but it’s about utilizing it in the proper way or restructuring it maybe. And in a lot of cases that could be it, it’s just, “Let’s restructure what you currently have and repurpose it so that it becomes of higher value to your desired clientele and it becomes almost like an irresistible offer. We’re going to make things so hard for your desired client to say ‘no’ to even just coming into your world that just all of a sudden things are just going to come pouring in for you.”
Loren Fogelman 27:28
And just to let you know, you mentioned something else about your ideal client that I think is key, is that they’ve been putting out a lot of content. They’re probably exhausted with how much content they’re creating, hoping that something will be the magic thing that opens up the floodgates for them. Recognize that. And once you help them to be able to get those right people in a funnel, turn them from warm to hot to invested, what is possible for your client then because they now have more clients and they’re making more money?
Chris Ippolito 28:04
They can scale. And maybe they’re already where they’ve got maybe a team of one or two that are supporting them. But once all of a sudden the floodgates open, they can scale to a size where they can employ more people if required. Which is great because that’s also helping other people. You’re giving them a source of income and in exchange they’re helping you get your message further out there.
What else would be possible is freedom of time in the sense that they’ll be able to step away a little bit from what they were doing before, which was just pumping out more content, and we’ll create a system. Because this is actually something I would help them out with, but it’s called a content multiplier strategy. Just showing them how you can use really one piece of content and turn that into probably a dozen pieces. And now all of a sudden all that work you were doing prior to just create all these 12 different, I’m going to show you a system that let’s just do one, but I’ll show you how to repurpose all of that such that you’re still getting the same amount of work out there, or maybe more, maybe we 10X what you’re already doing, meaning you’re just going to reach even more people.
Loren Fogelman 29:29
Okay, then what I’m hearing is that they’re starting to shift their business model a little bit possibly where they have scalability, it’s one to many as opposed to simply one to one. They also, because of that shift in their business model, might have more free time. When people get free time, maybe they can put back some of those things that they sacrifice from their personal life onto their agenda again, whether it’s going for a morning run, meditation, once again reconnecting with friends and having a social life again. Those are some of the things that might be possible once they start to work with you and see these results.
Chris Ippolito 30:10
Right. Building a bigger business, basically. I think the picture I have in my mind is that they’ve grown a business, but they’re still working in their business quite a bit. Whereas once we’ve created that funnel and that process and that system that is really automating a lot of this and doing a lot of the work for them, then they’ll be able to shift. I think taking them out of their business is going to be a challenge because they’re just so passionate about being in there and helping people out. But they’re going to have more time to start working on the business versus being stuck working in the business.
Loren Fogelman 30:52
Right. And that is so key. A lot of them don’t even know what it means to work on the business or they don’t feel like they have the time to. And that you might help them to be able to finally do some of those things that have been in the back of their mind for a long time but they never could get to, and now it could go on a calendar. Cool.
One of the things that I do know is that you might end up talking to some people that will be budget-minded, price-sensitive. What do you currently do when you have someone who maybe wants to work with you, but that becomes an issue?
Chris Ippolito 31:27
Currently what I’m doing is just trying to find a way to make it work with them. Now I don’t know if that’s the right approach or not in the sense that I’m reducing the financial investment on their part, but then what I’m trading is it becomes more of a time investment for me. Which is not necessarily the long-term plan for me. In fact, that’s quite the opposite of what I’m trying to do. Right now, just going back to what I would do if I were in that position selling somebody else’s product or service, I would just ask them, “Well, what is the number that would work best for you?,” or “Do you see the value as far as if you make this investment, do you see where this could put you?,” kind of idea. Just unpacking things a little bit is what I would end up doing, is trying to find out why do they feel that way, is it a timing thing, is it an actual financial restriction thing, is it a mindset of being worried that it’s going to be a lost investment or whatever it be. It’s really just unpacking it a little bit more with them.
Loren Fogelman 32:49
Sure, sure. And the fact that there might be some objections and you’re willing to stick with the conversation to find out what’s really going on, really kudos for you. Because that’s when so many people shut down the conversation because they just see that as pushback, resistance, they don’t really understand that there might be something else going on, it’s a matter of a further discussion.
But one of the things that’s right out of my Ultimate Pricing Bootcamp that would actually work instead of you lowering your rates to be able to take on a new client is to be able to look at packages for a potential client when you’re talking with them. What I teach, and this is really something that I do with all my clients, is help them look at creating three options of how to work with you. The first one I would say is the silver package, number two would be gold, and number three would be diamond.
Basically the way that this works is that the people that go into the silver package, they’re price-sensitive, they see the value of working with you but don’t have the means to afford a higher package. And they get really the bare bones, the basics, to be able to start to help them move forward and get results. However, it might be that some of it is more where they do the work themselves and you’re basically instructing them. Or it could be that things that you add on for other clients, you simply aren’t doing that with them. You’re giving them more of really the bare bones to get results, but they’re not getting the whole thing.
And then in the second package, which actually would be where the majority of your clients lie, which is the gold, this is really what they need to be able to get that result that you are promising them. And all of them will get the results, it’s just how much is about your time versus their time. And you don’t want to give everything to someone who is paying you the lowest rate possible. The majority of your clients actually fit into the gold. They need those things to be able to stop being a best kept secret, getting their funnel really to where it’s working, it’s attracting the right people, and it’s moving people from interested into committed. Those are the gold clients, most of your clients are there. It has absolutely nothing to do with how much time it takes, you’re focusing on the result with your packages.
And the diamond package is for those clients who just want more access to you, or maybe they have specific needs and desires, or they have a larger business and their funnel is going to be more complex. You throw in pretty much the whole kitchen sink with the diamond clients and give them a ton of access and information. It might be where, as in the gold there are some things where those clients are doing themselves, in the diamond maybe it’s all done for you.
Those are some of the things to consider. And now if you talked with a client and you gave them those three options, it’s not about if they’re going to work with you compared to somebody else that had a cheaper hourly rate than you did, it’s now more a discussion of how they want to work with you. It changes everything.
Chris Ippolito 36:11
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I’m already thinking what possible prices that those could be.
Loren Fogelman 36:20
Well, it goes back to having what I call the value conversation. There’s really three different parts to this value formula. It’s really valuing your time and what you have to offer, it’s self-worth. Then it’s about pricing for value instead of charging by the hour, the session, or the project. And then the third one is having a value conversation where they see the value of working with you because of how you had that initial consult with them. And then it’s really about pricing the client, as opposed to what you do, and necessarily your services. Which is a little bit of a shift, it goes back to that bottle of water. Same bottle, I just tapped into a really strong desire to want to live and all of a sudden something that was $1 went to $10,000.
Chris Ippolito 37:11
Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. When you’re coaching somebody, I’m wondering if I can ask a quick question.
Loren Fogelman 37:20
Of course you can.
Chris Ippolito 37:21
Because there’s always going to be that inner conflict of, “Well, how can I justify taking my rate from,” whatever it was by the hour, $150, $200, $250 is pretty standard, I think, in a lot of freelance consultant type roles. To all of a sudden saying, “Well, I’m going to say it’s $10,000 to get this work done.” And that’s like a 4X or a 5X increase compared to what that would have normally been. When somebody’s struggling with that, “How can I justify that? Am I truly worth that?,” how do you help them work through that conflict?
Loren Fogelman 38:09
Sure. I think that, first of all, that’s a normal concern for most entrepreneurs because most of us went from being an employee where we were getting an hourly rate and a paycheck that was based upon our time, whether you got a salary or you got paid by the hour. And we just took that model into our own business because that’s just what we knew and that’s what most people do and it’s easiest. However, it doesn’t mean that it’s the best way to go and in your best interest or in your client’s best interest.
The first thing I believe firmly, Chris, is that pricing by the hour is unfair to you as well as to your clients. Because when you price by the hour, then they don’t really know how much the project is going to cost them because you’re selling them your time. And you’re going to run into challenges or obstacles possibly, or something might change down the road with the scope of the project in some way. And something that maybe they budgeted $2,000 for now becomes a $5,000 bill, which, as a result, you then end up giving away your time and you’re negotiating your rate, so on and so forth. That’s the first thing to think about.
The other thing to look at is that it’s really about having that value conversation and you knowing your ideal client so well, what their needs, wants, and desires are. And then, once again, realizing that the cost of hiring you is less than the outcome that they can get from working with you.
An example is this potential client that you’re talking with later on today. If you can fix his funnels because he’s done the work already, first of all, how much do you think he’s already invested in doing this?
Chris Ippolito 39:57
He’s already told me. On this particular product that I’m helping him out with its $30,000 U.S.
Loren Fogelman 40:04
Oh my gosh. Okay. And if you only charged him $3,000 to fix your funnel, you’re leaving a lot of money on the table, right?
Chris Ippolito 40:12
Loren Fogelman 40:13
That’s the first thing to look at. And if you were able to get his funnel fixed with this particular product, what is the potential income that he might be able to make from having this actually work like it’s supposed to?
Chris Ippolito 40:29
It could be in the hundreds of thousands.
Loren Fogelman 40:33
Okay. Let’s just say within the first year. If we can get it fixed in one year and it’s working in 12 months, by the end of 2020 it’s really working.
Chris Ippolito 40:44
Yeah. I’m trying to remember the price point for the course itself.
Loren Fogelman 40:51
Yeah, just throw out a figure.
Chris Ippolito 40:52
I think we could recoup, if not get into the black of, his cost of what he put into it. $30,000 was what he invested. In the first 12 months I would say it would be very achievable to get that $30,000 back so he would break even on what he invested.
Loren Fogelman 41:15
On the first launch.
Chris Ippolito 41:16
Yeah, on what he invested there. And then, yeah, I would say my goal for his course, I remember thinking about this, was to be able to get to $100,000 in sales in the first 12 months.
Loren Fogelman 41:32
Okay. If you knew that he potentially could bring $100,000 in revenue and you simply charged 10% of that for your services and to fix this problem, then, and you don’t have to answer this question out loud, but how much more would you be making then if you would have just charged with your hourly rate?
Chris Ippolito 41:58
Oh yeah, a lot more.
Loren Fogelman 42:00
Okay. And that’s the, really, beauty of this boot camp, is that you go through all this. I work with you to create these packages, the silver, the gold, the diamond, I help you price them for value. And as a result of that, not only are you making more money with your services without necessarily changing what you’re doing, but you’re just approaching it differently by owning your value. It’s not about your time any longer, what everybody else in the industry is charging. And also you end up with better clients who are highly invested in helping them solve a particular problem, they see the value of working with you. These aren’t the ones that are the tire kickers or the ones who are price-sensitive and move on to someone else as soon as someone else has a lower rate than you.
Chris Ippolito 42:56
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Loren Fogelman 42:58
We covered a lot of stuff. How are you doing with everything right now, Chris?
Chris Ippolito 43:03
Good. Wheels are turning, I’m going to definitely be rewatching this and making notes. I transcribe all the episodes, I’ll be using that as my notes probably. I think we’re doing great. Actually, before I recap real quick, Loren, was there any other questions you had for me?
Loren Fogelman 43:28
No, no, we actually went through all of our questions for today.
Chris Ippolito 43:32
That‘s awesome. My goal still with every episode is to help anybody who listens to still take away one actionable piece of advice that really is relevant to our conversation. What would you suggest? What would you think would be the best next step for somebody who is stuck in that position, just what our conversation was about, they’re thinking about raising rates, maybe they’ve not even thought about it, but now after listening to this they’re going, “Maybe I need to revisit this and/or look at this and raise my rates”? And what would be that next step for them if they’re interested in learning how to do that?
Loren Fogelman 44:13
Sure, sure. The very first thing is to be able to separate your fees from time and know that it’s possible. Even with our conversation today, in a very short period of time you went from “I have to charge this much” to “maybe I can charge 10X what I thought I could be charging.” And I really, really hope that you get that, Chris, because it’s absolutely possible sooner than later. It’s not a long, painful, drawn-out process.
If anybody is interested in this and really is at that point where they want to raise their rates but they’ve been resisting, they’ve been overthinking, they have some of those same concerns as you, that, “Nobody else in my category charges that much,” or, “I don’t have the credentials,” “I can’t charge more than my mentor does or than other people in my category,” then The Ultimate Pricing Bootcamp, which is at businesssuccesssolution.com/pricing, is absolutely what’s going to help you take this from just an idea or an inspiration of “I want to raise my fees” and we’re going to go ahead and get it done to where we separate your fees from time, focusing on your value, on pricing your services for value, and really having that value conversation, taking a stand for your clients until they can take a stand for themselves.
Chris Ippolito 45:35
Right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Another option I would suggest, because I really enjoyed it, is you have an e-book that I believe is titled Get Paid What You’re Worth?
Loren Fogelman 45:49
Chris Ippolito 45:49
I really enjoyed that, it was a nice, quick read. That will get the wheels turning a little bit similar to what we talked about. I think that would be another good place to check out, as well.
Loren Fogelman 46:02
Absolutely. Get Paid What You’re Worth is at businesssuccesssolution.com/worth, I know that you’ll have it in the show notes.
Chris Ippolito 46:09
All in the show notes.
Loren Fogelman 46:09
Basically it takes what we talked about today. It’s a quick read to get you started on connecting with your value, how to separate your fees from time, recognize where you’re holding yourself back as you’re thinking about pricing your services, who those ideal clients are, and really how to get those results. Get Paid What You’re Worth is a great way to get started if you want to just figure it out a little bit more on your own before you jump into The Ultimate Pricing Bootcamp.
Chris Ippolito 46:39
Right, that’s awesome. And to wrap up things, because I think I feel pretty good about everything so far. Thanks, Loren, that was fantastic. What are some other places that people could find you if they wanted to reach out and connect?
Loren Fogelman 46:54
Basically I am on all the social media channels. I’m on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and Pinterest. But if somebody really wanted to have a conversation with me and be able to see what this looks like, the best thing to do is to go to my website and I have a link there called /letstalk. And we can just schedule a quick 15-minute chat to see what’s going on in your business and how to be able to start to separate your fees from time.
Chris Ippolito 47:29
That’s awesome. Yeah, all of those links will be in the show notes and description. And maybe we’ll get you on TikTok soon.
Loren Fogelman 47:38
I would love to be able to just continue to spread the word. This is my purpose, this is what lights me up, is knowing that we quickly solved a problem for you. As a result of that, you have some insights you didn’t have before, you’re going to help someone else. And as a result of that, you’re going to be paid for your value as opposed to your time.
Chris Ippolito 47:59
Yeah, it was great. Thank you so much, Loren, that was really great. And yeah, everybody listening, go take advantage of the book or the 15 minutes, I think that you’ll take a ton of value out of it. I really appreciate it and I’m sure we’ll talk again down the road. I’ll keep you up to date on how things are going.
Loren Fogelman 48:23
Oh, absolutely. Please, write me a testimonial.
Chris Ippolito 48:25
Oh, yeah, 100%. Will do, will do. Thanks, Loren. Take care.